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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:24 am 
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Ron 80 wrote:
Governor Jim Doyle said the Mercury Marine tax breaks could cost state about $70 MILLION.
http://www.jsonline.com/business/69343837.html

To save 2700 jobs (800 of which would have to be added). That comes to $26,000 per job paid by us taxpayers.

Doyle says it was a good deal, claims MM wasn't playing Oklahoma against Wisconsin, but we all know better.

Of course, if the deal lasts for 20-30 years then it may be worth the cost, but when the state is struggling with budget deficits and canceling state run programs for lack of money, this really stinks. (I'm looking at you Mercury Marine/Calvin.)



Isn't that just FDL county taxpayers?


Are you suggesting the Doyle is mistaken? Lying?

I don't want to read a lack of something as evidence of something but again you go with seeming unwillingness to judge the government that gives the breaks to the business while keeping an eye (looking at) Mercury Marine/Calvin.

Do you actually give a pass to the one who gives and judge only the one that receives?

By the way tax breaks aren’t the same as taking money out of somebody’s pocket. If there is a loss of revenue to local or state government and that causes local or state government to enact commensurate spending cuts, well, that’s called a balanced budget. Of course a balanced budget, in and of itself, isn’t necessarily all good; what spending is done is what matters.

Is MM getting money or tax breaks?


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:30 am 
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bluemoon wrote:
horsefeathers.
wisconsin would just end up like california: deadbeat, dead broke.

Another opportunity


• Budgets out of kilter. The recession puts almost all states in a bind, but California, Illinois, Michigan, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin have a history of persistent shortfalls, the study said.

The above excerpted from: http://features.csmonitor.com/economyre ... al-crisis/


They call it persistent shortfalls. In fact it's closer to the truth to say spending more than they have persistently.


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:24 pm 
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NBjoe wrote:
Smith wrote:
REPLY:

As for road concerns, I'm pretty sure the gasoline tax covers ALL of those things you mention. The "tax on business," paid by people, not businesses, I THINK, is used for other things.

Apparently you missed the phrase "operational infrastructure" in my reply. I don't believe the gas tax covers water, sewer, street lighting, snow removal, police and fire services.

Smith wrote:
Help me out here, please, did the company pay those bonuses?

As the suit was filed a few months ago, I don't believe it has even made it to court yet.


Representative Stone wrote back:

The State of Wisconsin relies on three main sources to fund state and local transportation needs. These include the Transportation Fund (gas tax, vehicle registration and other vehicle-related fees), bonds, and federal aid.

Transportation fund revenues are used for road, bridge and snow removal projects. Funds for street lighting are a combination of transportation fund revenues and local property taxes. Shared Revenue payments from the state, along with local property tax dollars cover police and fire services, while a combination of federal aids and property taxes are used to meet water and sewer needs.

The state’s transportation finance program is significantly more detailed than what I have described here, but hopefully, this addresses your immediate question of funding for specific services.
END REP. LETTER

Any way, I don't see the words BUSINESS TAX here anywhere. Though doubtless businesses contribute (as Clinton might say) to these other taxes. Again, BUSINESSES don't pay taxes. ONLY PEOPLE PAY TAXES.

Thanks for the exchange, NBJ


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:46 am 
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Smith wrote:
Representative Stone wrote back:

The State of Wisconsin relies on three main sources to fund state and local transportation needs. These include the Transportation Fund (gas tax, vehicle registration and other vehicle-related fees), bonds, and federal aid.
.....

END REP. LETTER

Any way, I don't see the words BUSINESS TAX here anywhere. Though doubtless businesses contribute (as Clinton might say) to these other taxes. Again, BUSINESSES don't pay taxes. ONLY PEOPLE PAY TAXES. (!!really!!)


When the Business's revenue is used to buy gas for the company-owned or company-leased car, then the BUSINESS is paying the tax. When the Business registers the company-owned vehicle, then the BUSINESS is paying the fee. It makes no difference which human writes out the check, the transfer of money is from the Business to the Government. None of the revenue sources listed are charged ONLY to Businesses, but clearly, Businesses DO pay as well as individuals.


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:22 pm 
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firefly wrote:
When the Business's revenue is used to buy gas for the company-owned or company-leased car, then the BUSINESS is paying the tax. When the Business registers the company-owned vehicle, then the BUSINESS is paying the fee. It makes no difference which human writes out the check, the transfer of money is from the Business to the Government. None of the revenue sources listed are charged ONLY to Businesses, but clearly, Businesses DO pay as well as individuals.

Thank you, firefly. Well said.

_________________
Want to create more jobs? Buy American-made products whenever you can.
Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:52 pm 
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The Pew Center's report makes interesting reading.

The section on Wisconsin's troubles cites loss of manufacturing jobs, leading to decreased tax revenues as one significant factor. Huge promise on state-funded schools is another. The report's authors also seemed to think it was pretty significant that the state had cut the income tax in 1998, raised sales tax in 1999, and had a negative general fund balance for 5 straight years before the recession started.

Hmmm, who was da governator?

Thompson until 2001
Scott McCallum until 2003
Then Doyle.

We face hard times now because we didn't handle our funds during the good times in a responsible way. :facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:05 am 
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firefly wrote:
Smith wrote:
Representative Stone wrote back:

The State of Wisconsin relies on three main sources to fund state and local transportation needs. These include the Transportation Fund (gas tax, vehicle registration and other vehicle-related fees), bonds, and federal aid.
.....

END REP. LETTER

Any way, I don't see the words BUSINESS TAX here anywhere. Though doubtless businesses contribute (as Clinton might say) to these other taxes. Again, BUSINESSES don't pay taxes. ONLY PEOPLE PAY TAXES. (!!really!!)


When the Business's revenue is used to buy gas for the company-owned or company-leased car, then the BUSINESS is paying the tax. When the Business registers the company-owned vehicle, then the BUSINESS is paying the fee. It makes no difference which human writes out the check, the transfer of money is from the Business to the Government. None of the revenue sources listed are charged ONLY to Businesses, but clearly, Businesses DO pay as well as individuals.


Not really. You see the cost of that gasoline is added to the cost of doing business, including adding that expense onto the cost of the product they produce or service they provide. Therefore the consumer of the business product/service pays for the gasoline and the tax on that gasoline for that matter. Businesses do NOT pay taxes, people pay taxes.

The cost of registering that vehicle is passed onto the consumer; people pay taxes, not businesses.

They don't print the money. The money that they are sending came to the business from people who bought their products or used their service(s).

Businesses don't pay, people pay. My response was to NBJ who was, as is often done in justifying (in my opinion excessive) government for some reason, trying to explain that corporate taxes pay for so much...using mostly examples that are financed by gasoline taxes (or Transportation funds taxes). That was in reply to the suggestion that there should be no corporate tax in Wisconsin.

You might have been confused because I failed to continue to use his term, CORPORATE TAXES and used business tax. He wrote in response to the suggestion that there should be no corporate taxes in Wisconsin thusly: "Horse hockey. Then how are you going to pay for roads, bridges and other operational infrastructure?" (As though Corporate Taxes funded these things.) Thanks for your reply. I think you and I were working on this one: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=847&start=20

Maybe I'm not making it clear?

Let's say that a business produces a product that costs 100 dollars to make and they want a 50% profit on that. If they sell for $150 that would seem to be all they need to do to satisfy that margin.

And maybe that's it. It depends on how you actually measure the cost, accounting procedures can get awfully weird. If the tax they need to pay is incorporated into that cost of production, then the price of $150 will do it. So who pays the tax? Well the tax was incorporated into the expense of production so the purchaser pays the tax EVEN IF the money is delivered to the government by the business. They're just collecting the money from the purchaser and passing it along to the government. Simple.

Is this not clear? It seems clear to me. Maybe I'm missing something in my explanation.


[Yes, !!really!!]


Last edited by Smith on Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:09 am 
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firefly wrote:
The Pew Center's report makes interesting reading.

The section on Wisconsin's troubles cites loss of manufacturing jobs, leading to decreased tax revenues as one significant factor. Huge promise on state-funded schools is another. The report's authors also seemed to think it was pretty significant that the state had cut the income tax in 1998, raised sales tax in 1999, and had a negative general fund balance for 5 straight years before the recession started.

Hmmm, who was da governator?

Thompson until 2001
Scott McCallum until 2003
Then Doyle.

We face hard times now because we didn't handle our funds during the good times in a responsible way. :facepalm:


Are you suggesting the government is irresponsible with our money?
It kind of sounds like it.
I think that's often the case and is why I don't like the idea of government taking much of our money, especially if it's just being used to buy votes by taking from some just to give to others.


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:50 pm 
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firefly wrote:
The Pew Center's report makes interesting reading.

The section on Wisconsin's troubles cites loss of manufacturing jobs, leading to decreased tax revenues as one significant factor. Huge promise on state-funded schools is another. The report's authors also seemed to think it was pretty significant that the state had cut the income tax in 1998, raised sales tax in 1999, and had a negative general fund balance for 5 straight years before the recession started.

Hmmm, who was da governator?

Thompson until 2001
Scott McCallum until 2003
Then Doyle.


We face hard times now because we didn't handle our funds during the good times in a responsible way. :facepalm:


When, exactly, did that recession start?


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