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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:00 am 
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Smith wrote:
Well if Mercury Marine wasn't given a definite benefit over the competition- the government choosing winners - then I don't know what 50 million dollars means. Calving (MM) go the subsidy all right, as happens in a corporate form of economics- at the expense of taxpayers.

THIS IS BIG GOVERNMENT at it's BIGGEST: Choosing winners and losers.

As for whether or not government controls business or business controls government we can debate forever which it is and which is worse (or better). The point is the government gave money that rightfully belongs to the taxpayers to Calvin (MM).

I think your your concern that MM got a subsidy, while not being concerned that government intervened in the market place in a noxious manner, demonstrates that a little more thought is needed as to what you view as the problem.


The government had no choice but to give Mercury Marine tax incentives to stay. The government intervened to save jobs, not to kill competition.

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:48 am 
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Ron 80 wrote:
Smith wrote:
Well if Mercury Marine wasn't given a definite benefit over the competition- the government choosing winners - then I don't know what 50 million dollars means. Calving (MM) go the subsidy all right, as happens in a corporate form of economics- at the expense of taxpayers.

THIS IS BIG GOVERNMENT at it's BIGGEST: Choosing winners and losers.

As for whether or not government controls business or business controls government we can debate forever which it is and which is worse (or better). The point is the government gave money that rightfully belongs to the taxpayers to Calvin (MM).

I think your your concern that MM got a subsidy, while not being concerned that government intervened in the market place in a noxious manner, demonstrates that a little more thought is needed as to what you view as the problem.


The government had no choice but to give Mercury Marine tax incentives to stay. The government intervened to save jobs, not to kill competition.


Who or what forced the government to act, if they had no choice, as you say?

Well now that we have prima-facie evidence that tax cuts are good for jobs, why don't we get more of them?

(The intervention to save jobs just had, as collateral damage, I guess, putting competition at a disadvantage?)


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:39 am 
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In my not so humble opinion...
The should be NO corporate tax in Wisconsin..

This would bring business back to the state. Create jobs, both union and non union, and build the tax base. People without jobs cant spend money.

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:42 pm 
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horsefeathers.
wisconsin would just end up like california: deadbeat, dead broke.


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:15 pm 
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Parentof3 wrote:
In my not so humble opinion...
The should be NO corporate tax in Wisconsin..

This would bring business back to the state. Create jobs, both union and non union, and build the tax base.

Horse hockey. Then how are you going to pay for roads, bridges and other operational infrastructure?

And let's look at the whole Mercury Marine fiasco. It was the union which had to take the concessions with a major pay cut. When they first voted it down, everyone was on their case. They should be lucky to have a job, right? A week after they approved the cuts, 300 middle managers filed suit against the company for bonuses they were promised and didn't receive. Average bonus was $75,000. But, of course, it's the union wages and the corporate tax that's always to blame, not the bonuses of management, which is lame.

Parentof3 wrote:
People without jobs cant spend money.

Wow, I bet you went to college to learn that. :roll:

The best way to create jobs in the state, and America, and build the tax base is... BUY AMERICAN!!!! At least whenever you can, while you still can.

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:00 am 
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You pay for infrastructure by taxes taken from working people wages and sales taxes on the things these people have to buy...

And yes I went to Madison..

How can you buy products that are American if the companies are being chased out?

Again, no corporate taxes would bring companies here, to Wisconsin, to create jobs thus giving people money to spend on American products.. That creates more revenue for the government..

The whole Mercury Marine thing was a mess. If you tax the people that usually buy the product they are not going to buy. New Boats are just not selling.

Let me say this.... I believe the answer is somewhere in between as far as Union VS Management. The problem is the loudest people are on the extreme side so both sides sound silly.

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:48 am 
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NBJOE:

Horse hockey. Then how are you going to pay for roads, bridges and other operational infrastructure?

And let's look at the whole Mercury Marine fiasco. It was the union which had to take the concessions with a major pay cut. When they first voted it down, everyone was on their case. They should be lucky to have a job, right? A week after they approved the cuts, 300 middle managers filed suit against the company for bonuses they were promised and didn't receive. Average bonus was $75,000. But, of course, it's the union wages and the corporate tax that's always to blame, not the bonuses of management, which is lame.



The best way to create jobs in the state, and America, and build the tax base is... BUY AMERICAN!!!! At least whenever you can, while you still can.


REPLY:

As for road concerns, I'm pretty sure the gasoline tax covers ALL of those things you mention. The "tax on business," paid by people, not businesses, I THINK, is used for other things.

Help me out here, please, did the company pay those bonuses?

Both parties are busy driving manufacturing and other industry from America, not so easy to do. But we CAN try as it's appropriate.


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Smith wrote:
REPLY:

As for road concerns, I'm pretty sure the gasoline tax covers ALL of those things you mention. The "tax on business," paid by people, not businesses, I THINK, is used for other things.

Apparently you missed the phrase "operational infrastructure" in my reply. I don't believe the gas tax covers water, sewer, street lighting, snow removal, police and fire services.

Smith wrote:
Help me out here, please, did the company pay those bonuses?

As the suit was filed a few months ago, I don't believe it has even made it to court yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:33 am 
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NBjoe wrote:
Smith wrote:
REPLY:

As for road concerns, I'm pretty sure the gasoline tax covers ALL of those things you mention. The "tax on business," paid by people, not businesses, I THINK, is used for other things.

Apparently you missed the phrase "operational infrastructure" in my reply. I don't believe the gas tax covers water, sewer, street lighting, snow removal, police and fire services.

Smith wrote:
Help me out here, please, did the company pay those bonuses?

As the suit was filed a few months ago, I don't believe it has even made it to court yet.


Oops, my mistake I overlooked that stuff in your post about operational infrastructure.

I missed that when I was noting your error (I think) in your suggesting that business taxes covers roads and bridges. The stuff you call operational infrastructure is covered, locally I think, by property taxes isn't it? It might be worth a letter to one of our "representatives" to find how how that operational infrastructure is funded so we can better debate this. I'll get back to you on that.

By the way I want to reiterate my point that businesses don't pay taxes; people pay taxes, ONLY people pay taxes, ALL taxes are paid by people. (Businesses just pass on their operational costs, including taxes, to consumers.)

I don't understand your point, "But, of course, it's the union wages and the corporate tax that's always to blame, not the bonuses of management, which is lame."

That suit hasn't cost the company anything yet. Well maybe they've incurred some expense in lawyers' fees? In fact, the company seems to be interested in stiffing the managers like the government stiffs the taxpayers. Interesting that those management people need to sue the company to get the bonuses you say were promised but the company just takes money gifted to it by government- money taken from taxpayers. Where do the taxpayers of FDL County file their suit?


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:30 am 
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Governor Jim Doyle said the Mercury Marine tax breaks could cost state about $70 MILLION.
http://www.jsonline.com/business/69343837.html

To save 2700 jobs (800 of which would have to be added). That comes to $26,000 per job paid by us taxpayers.

Doyle says it was a good deal, claims MM wasn't playing Oklahoma against Wisconsin, but we all know better.

Of course, if the deal lasts for 20-30 years then it may be worth the cost, but when the state is struggling with budget deficits and canceling state run programs for lack of money, this really stinks. (I'm looking at you Mercury Marine/Calvin.)

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