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 Post subject: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:27 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:32 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:15 am 
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Yeah, like Wall Street....


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:15 pm 
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Who does the subsidizing?

Great cartoon. Makes a good point about the free market. You offer your product(s) or service(s) at your price and if people pay that's great. If they don't so what, no skin off my nose or yours, no money taken from me or you. The only loser is the business that didn't offer itself at a price somebody wants to pay.

Regarding all of that subsidizing that goes on, though, that's not capitalism, that's fascism, and THAT IS money out of my pocket and yours if you pay taxes.

How does that happen?


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:57 am 
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Smith wrote:
Who does the subsidizing?

Great cartoon. Makes a good point about the free market. You offer your product(s) or service(s) at your price and if people pay that's great. If they don't so what, no skin off my nose or yours, no money taken from me or you. The only loser is the business that didn't offer itself at a price somebody wants to pay.

Regarding all of that subsidizing that goes on, though, that's not capitalism, that's fascism, and THAT IS money out of my pocket and yours if you pay taxes.

How does that happen?


Let's use Mercury Marine as an example. The "facist" :roll: Fond du Lac County Board are handing Mercury Marine a $50 million dollar publicly financed loan to stay in FDL. Right away, $9 million is free, not to be paid back by the company if they maintain the current local workforce for 12 years. If they add more employees, millions more will be forgiven.

Mercury announced it's giving back the $1.2-$1.6 million Oklahoma gave it to move the factory to their turf. Pretty good deal, $50 mil vs. less than $2 mil.

Calvin got his subsidy, and got his workers to accept less pay while he got to keep his big paycheck. That's corporate welfare, not facscism.

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:15 am 
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Ron 80 wrote:
Smith wrote:
Who does the subsidizing?

Great cartoon. Makes a good point about the free market. You offer your product(s) or service(s) at your price and if people pay that's great. If they don't so what, no skin off my nose or yours, no money taken from me or you. The only loser is the business that didn't offer itself at a price somebody wants to pay.

Regarding all of that subsidizing that goes on, though, that's not capitalism, that's fascism, and THAT IS money out of my pocket and yours if you pay taxes.

How does that happen?


Let's use Mercury Marine as an example. The "facist" :roll: Fond du Lac County Board are handing Mercury Marine a $50 million dollar publicly financed loan to stay in FDL. Right away, $9 million is free, not to be paid back by the company if they maintain the current local workforce for 12 years. If they add more employees, millions more will be forgiven.

Mercury announced it's giving back the $1.2-$1.6 million Oklahoma gave it to move the factory to their turf. Pretty good deal, $50 mil vs. less than $2 mil.

Calvin got his subsidy, and got his workers to accept less pay while he got to keep his big paycheck. That's corporate welfare, not facscism.


How does corporate welfare differ from fascism?

Calvin didn’t get his subsidy that we know of from this cartoon. Possibly he got it in a subsequent cartoon?

However, I do believe I’m following your comparison here. You’ve referred to Mercury Marine as Calvin. While there are problems with your comparison (e.g. Calvin had no sales Mercury Marine does have sales) I think it would be less confusing to let those go and just jump right into the Mercury Marine situation to which I do NOT claim to have panacea.

You’re saying that the state (GOVERNMENT) of Oklahoma was attempting to persuade Mercury Marine to move more (I’ve heard) of its operation(s) to Oklahoma if I understand this all correctly. You’re also saying that The "Fond du Lac County Board [GOVERNMENT] are handing Mercury Marine a $50 million dollar publicly financed loan to stay in FDL. Right away, $9 million is free, not to be paid back by the company if they maintain the current local workforce for 12 years. If they add more employees, millions more will be forgiven.”


Do you see the common factor here? It is GOVERNMENT acting not necessarily in the obvious interest of taxpayers, whom they are to represent, but it is surely acting, as government always does, in its own interest. The government, regardless the other factors involved, believes that spending other people’s money (the money of the taxpayers of FDL county) will somehow benefit government. Always seems to, doesn’t it?


Maybe I’ve gotten a bit ahead of myself in this discussion. The form of government known as fascism- while about as easy to define the limits of as socialism- does employ as one of its elements a financial or economic component known as corporatism. It’s really hard, sometimes, to tell who’s in charge in a system of corporatism but the government- as always- does very well in that system. Do not let the root of “corporatism,” that being “corporate,” get you thinking that it employs favoring merely business entities known as corporations. There are other corporate entities that will tend to fare well, and are faring very well, alongside our “Federal government” these days.

By the way, I’m not sure which side you are coming down on here, did you want Mercury Marine to leave or not?

Did you want those jobs to leave for Oklahoma or not?

Did you favor the economic incentives offered by the "Fond du Lac County Board” or not?

Thank you for your time.


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 Post subject: Re: Corporatism
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:45 am 
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Let's see, $9,000,000 over 12 years
That's $750,000 a year

Do you suppose they will receive that much in property tax from the business itself, and from the people who have decent jobs and can keep their homes? vs. a vacant manufacturing property and a bunch of foreclosed homes? Maybe not the county alone, but county + municipal, surely, will get that investment back. Sanity check: if 200 homes pay $3750 in property tax to municipal and county governments, then they will cover that $9 million in the 12 years. And that doesn't even consider the corporate taxes paid during the same time.

There were 800 workers voting on the union's concessions proposal. That doesn't count the management positions at the facility. Maybe not all are home-owners, but surely 200 are.

Just because it's good for the government doesn't mean it's not also good for the people. Isn't that the whole point behind WIN-WIN negotiations?

Pure Capitalism CANNOT take care of the common good, because its sole motivating force is individual profit. Why build roads for your competition to use? Why clean up toxic waste if you can just bury it in the back yard? When the owners of an enterprise can live in luxury 2 counties away from the factory, it certainly won't bother them....


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:47 pm 
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Smith wrote:
Ron 80 wrote:
Smith wrote:
Who does the subsidizing?

Great cartoon. Makes a good point about the free market. You offer your product(s) or service(s) at your price and if people pay that's great. If they don't so what, no skin off my nose or yours, no money taken from me or you. The only loser is the business that didn't offer itself at a price somebody wants to pay.

Regarding all of that subsidizing that goes on, though, that's not capitalism, that's fascism, and THAT IS money out of my pocket and yours if you pay taxes.

How does that happen?


Let's use Mercury Marine as an example. The "facist" :roll: Fond du Lac County Board are handing Mercury Marine a $50 million dollar publicly financed loan to stay in FDL. Right away, $9 million is free, not to be paid back by the company if they maintain the current local workforce for 12 years. If they add more employees, millions more will be forgiven.

Mercury announced it's giving back the $1.2-$1.6 million Oklahoma gave it to move the factory to their turf. Pretty good deal, $50 mil vs. less than $2 mil.

Calvin got his subsidy, and got his workers to accept less pay while he got to keep his big paycheck. That's corporate welfare, not facscism.


How does corporate welfare differ from fascism?

Calvin didn’t get his subsidy that we know of from this cartoon. Possibly he got it in a subsequent cartoon?

However, I do believe I’m following your comparison here. You’ve referred to Mercury Marine as Calvin. While there are problems with your comparison (e.g. Calvin had no sales Mercury Marine does have sales) I think it would be less confusing to let those go and just jump right into the Mercury Marine situation to which I do NOT claim to have panacea.

You’re saying that the state (GOVERNMENT) of Oklahoma was attempting to persuade Mercury Marine to move more (I’ve heard) of its operation(s) to Oklahoma if I understand this all correctly. You’re also saying that The "Fond du Lac County Board [GOVERNMENT] are handing Mercury Marine a $50 million dollar publicly financed loan to stay in FDL. Right away, $9 million is free, not to be paid back by the company if they maintain the current local workforce for 12 years. If they add more employees, millions more will be forgiven.”


Do you see the common factor here? It is GOVERNMENT acting not necessarily in the obvious interest of taxpayers, whom they are to represent, but it is surely acting, as government always does, in its own interest. The government, regardless the other factors involved, believes that spending other people’s money (the money of the taxpayers of FDL county) will somehow benefit government. Always seems to, doesn’t it?


Maybe I’ve gotten a bit ahead of myself in this discussion. The form of government known as fascism- while about as easy to define the limits of as socialism- does employ as one of its elements a financial or economic component known as corporatism. It’s really hard, sometimes, to tell who’s in charge in a system of corporatism but the government- as always- does very well in that system. Do not let the root of “corporatism,” that being “corporate,” get you thinking that it employs favoring merely business entities known as corporations. There are other corporate entities that will tend to fare well, and are faring very well, alongside our “Federal government” these days.

By the way, I’m not sure which side you are coming down on here, did you want Mercury Marine to leave or not?

Did you want those jobs to leave for Oklahoma or not?

Did you favor the economic incentives offered by the "Fond du Lac County Board” or not?

Thank you for your time.


Hey Ron,

You made a few points but I think you left the salient points hanging there, twisting in the wind.

:?: :?: :?:
Did you favor the economic incentives offered by the "Fond du Lac County Board” or not?

Did you want those jobs to leave for Oklahoma or not?

:?: :?: :?:

In the interest of minimizing "Corporate Welfare" would you have preferred Mercury to get Oklahoma (Taxpayers') 2 million or FDL County (Taxpayers') 50 million?

Also, how does corporate welfare differ from the economic component of fascism?

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:07 pm 
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Smith wrote:

Hey Ron,

You made a few points but I think you left the salient points hanging there, twisting in the wind.

:?: :?: :?:
Did you favor the economic incentives offered by the "Fond du Lac County Board” or not?

Did you want those jobs to leave for Oklahoma or not?

:?: :?: :?:

In the interest of minimizing "Corporate Welfare" would you have preferred Mercury to get Oklahoma (Taxpayers') 2 million or FDL County (Taxpayers') 50 million?

Also, how does corporate welfare differ from the economic component of fascism?

Thanks.

What I think about the FDL tax incentives or jobs leaving for Oklahoma isn't the point. FDL wasn't acting in a fascist manner by giving tax breaks to the company. The government gains no control of the company or the competition.

When I mentioned that Calvin got his subsidy, i.e., corporate welfare, I was alluding to Mercury Marine.

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 Post subject: Re: Capitalism Defined
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:59 pm 
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Ron 80 wrote:
Smith wrote:

Hey Ron,

You made a few points but I think you left the salient points hanging there, twisting in the wind.

:?: :?: :?:
Did you favor the economic incentives offered by the "Fond du Lac County Board” or not?

Did you want those jobs to leave for Oklahoma or not?

:?: :?: :?:

In the interest of minimizing "Corporate Welfare" would you have preferred Mercury to get Oklahoma (Taxpayers') 2 million or FDL County (Taxpayers') 50 million?

Also, how does corporate welfare differ from the economic component of fascism?

Thanks.

What I think about the FDL tax incentives or jobs leaving for Oklahoma isn't the point. FDL wasn't acting in a fascist manner by giving tax breaks to the company. The government gains no control of the company or the competition.

When I mentioned that Calvin got his subsidy, i.e., corporate welfare, I was alluding to Mercury Marine.


Well if Mercury Marine wasn't given a definite benefit over the competition- the government choosing winners - then I don't know what 50 million dollars means. Calving (MM) go the subsidy all right, as happens in a corporate form of economics- at the expense of taxpayers.

THIS IS BIG GOVERNMENT at it's BIGGEST: Choosing winners and losers.

As for whether or not government controls business or business controls government we can debate forever which it is and which is worse (or better). The point is the government gave money that rightfully belongs to the taxpayers to Calvin (MM).

I think your your concern that MM got a subsidy, while not being concerned that government intervened in the market place in a noxious manner, demonstrates that a little more thought is needed as to what you view as the problem.


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